Supposing a disembodied voice were to say to you; "You are being transported to pre-existing fictional universe of your choosing. You will be given a universal translation device implanted discreetly in your ear, and an equivalent of ten thousand dollars of the local currency. While you won't personally know any of the protagonists, or antagonists of this fictional universe, they do exist in your time frame. Meeting said protagonists/antagonists would be like meeting Madonna, or Charles Manson. There's a possibility of this occurring, but it's highly unlikely. Working to your advantage though, is your knowledge of the workings of this fictional place. The universe of your choice can be from a book, movie, or television. Choose your destination now!"
Where would you go? What do you think you would do there? Keep in mind what the everyday situation of this universe you are choosing might be. Would living in that situation really be as amazing as your instant reaction says it would be?
63 comments:
I'm thinking the Star Trek TNG universe would probably be the most interesting and the safest. As much as I like BSG, I'd probably be on the 'kia' roster pretty quick. Maybe the Cowboy Bebop Uni? Rogue Squadron? HP? Pretty tough to answer this one.
I'd probably go back to the Fictional Universe of Father of the Bride (1991), and just, like, chill out. Those were good times.
TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS!?!
I choose the fictional world of TV's 1959-1960's Playboy's Penthouse - Hef's variety show set in his Chicago penthouse apartment. The show was shot like you were a guest at one of Hef's parties. The world is rather small (it's just a penthouse apartment) so the chances of meeting and conversing with Hef and the guests would be greater than in a larger uni- or multiverse. Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis Jr., Lenny Bruce, and others dropped by. So although it might be limiting in that I could not leave the penthouse, interesting people would be coming in and out daily. The Modern Jazz Quartet would be the house band. The booze flowed and the spread was impressive - for what passed as late 50s haute cuisine. Beautiful drink, food, music, people, clothes, furnishings, smokes - a mid century American bacchanalia. Free vice without consequence.
Money's pretty irrelevant when you're talking about travling like this, isn't it? What's a material item when you're, like, chillin' on a 1991 beach, n' shit. Just chillin'.
Not comics?!? 'Cause there's some golden age comics that we could have some serious fun in, knowing what we know. I also wouldn't mind living in a Bruce Tim world... >.>
But I'd go to Vernor Vinge's Marooned In Realtime, hands down. It's set in the far, far, far future and has a small population so you'd be in the middle of the story. But it's all about being near the singularity.
What are you crazy, Fugu? Of course comics are allowed as a possible universe choice. When I say books, I don't make a distinction between the comic and literary.
The ten thousand dollars worth of currency is really sort of seed money for whatever you might be getting yourself into. Where talking about emigration, not just a visit.
I figured ten thousand dollars/zenny/quatloos would be a good amount of cash to rent a small apartment/painting studio above the bakery/flying machine repair shop in the Ghibliverse I'd be going to. I figure since I'd be living in the French Japanese occupied Switzerland of 1920/64, Ten grand could keep me comfortable till my business got off its feet.
Ghilbli-verse or Hef's house...hmmm that's a tuff one. I'll take the bunnies over the little girls.
And a different question could be: Where would you like to visit for a few weeks? Maybe your three top vacation spots, following similar rules.
1. WoW, if allowed, and if you can always rez at a graveyard when you get blown the hell up.
2. Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age (neo-victorian technological renascence. Mmmmm....)
3.Bas-Lag. Sure wouldn't want to live there but would be a hell of a "vacation".
I think I would choose the caverns of time. That way you could see not only anywhere but any-when. I don't really know the other two.
Well you'd get to choose your own three, dude!
But whatever you do, don't choose this. *_*
Xanth
Maybe the wonderland Alice visited down the rabbit hole.
Most pre-existing fictional worlds would be tough places for women I think.
Any historical fiction dated before 1920 would deny me the right to vote. Not to mention, I would have to fight for the most basic respect on a daily basis. Don't need that.
And -- I haven't read that much science fiction, but women seem mostly appendages to men in this genre. Please correct me if I'm wrong! I know there's a vast library of science fiction out there I know nothing about.
At the other extreme, deliberately pro-female utopian fictional worlds are usually creepy. Reading Herland in high school English class probably made me wary of activist feminism.
That Bio-Bak world gets a little creepy after a while.
Odori, I would like to correct you, because I believe you to be somewhat well, wrong in regards to science fiction characters having female appendages. I have never read a science fiction book where any man had a female appendage! I kind of wish I had!
But in all seriousness, I did discuss your opinion with Mrs. Panic, and surprisingly she held the same sentiment. When I say "surprisingly", it is because I was under the opinion that sci-fi tends to be pretty gender neutral, so I was shocked when Mrs. Panic's automatic reaction was that it was male dominant. Could it be the subject matter may simply be more appealing to the male gender? Is that what you refer to?
We discussed several relatively popular science fiction stories, and all of these had strong female characters, who in no way to a back seat to men in the genre. It was strange, as the first universe we discussed was the Dune universe (or Dune-iverse) And I quickly pointed out that most of the female characters in the book were more in command of the story than the males, and for the most part way more interesting character-wise.
I am curious as to what science fiction books you are getting this opinion from? I'm not saying that there are no male dominant science fiction stories, and it could just be that the books I have read are a select minority of the whole genre as well.
This deserves more research and response!
and OMG XANTH LOLZ!
I can see how it might look like a male dominated genre, maybe like how science in general comes across as male dominated, which is a huge bummer. I think though that good science fiction writers are like good writers in any niche, and their characters tend to reflect this (which is also to say that Scifi's got their crap writers, and they probably write about women as actual appendages more often than not). I'd love to see a male:female protagonist ratio in fiction:scifi (OMG, ratios in ratios... I love that). I wouldn't be surprised if scifi was actually a little bit higher than average.
And hey! I just read today that the winner of this year's Nebula award for best novel (one of the two major science fiction awards) went to Ursula K. Le Guin... again! She's won more awards than you can shake all your rubbery appendages at. The best novella and best short story awards went to women writers as well!
And I don't know who this is, but her book sounds awesome:
Andre Norton Award: How a Girl of Spirit Gambles All to Expand Her Vocabulary, Confront a Bouncing Boy Terror, and Try to Save Califa from a Shaky Doom (Despite Being Confined to Her Room) by Ysabeau S. Wilce
I think the fact that Sci-Fi is seen as a male-dominated genre (and I don't find it at all surprising that anyone would see it this way) is not because there aren't enough female characters in the genre. As far as I can see, it's because Science Fiction is marketed to boys and men. This has already been discussed in mri's epic Knock me down and fuck me shoes comment, as well as my own picture-essay on the subject, Showdown II: Scrappy Girl Hacker Versus Hot Starship A.I. (at least until I got so turned on by it I had to abandon/embrace my central thesis--so never mind).
I might go further to say that it was pretty much throughout its history, Sci-Fi was written for and about the male demographic, suggesting that many of the classic "greats" of the genre (Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, and to a lesser extent, Bradbury) tend to shy away from writing female characters, focusing on the male reaction to fantastic situations. I might have made this point if I knew more of what I was talking about, but since I do not, I will leave this point out entirely.
Also: Sometimes I think a "strong female character" in Science Fiction is often defined by her resemblance to a strong male character--that is to say, she has attributes that a man would find "strong". Kind of all about the motherfucking Gaze, dudes. That, too, however; may be little more than a suspicion on my part, and is best left out of the discussion.
GOOD QUESTION, though!
Three worlds came to mind immediately, but the mention of the money made things concrete for me, and I got to thinking, "What would I reallyend up doing if I found myself there?"
THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE
Okay, of course I would choose the Star Wars Universe. Except, unless one finds oneself in the right place at the right time (or is related to Darth Vader), it seems like there's not a lot of drama. It even seems a little sleepy. I'm not sure about any marketable skills I'd have there. I'm good at flight simulators, so maybe I could join up with the Imperial Navy. Of course, I'm not THAT good, so I'd probably wash out of combat training and end up on supply runs along the Outer Rim, with brief and scarce missions to the Core Worlds. More likely, I'd end up a stormtrooper.
THE DUNE UNIVERSE (or "DUNEIVERSE")
Truly a world beyond your imagination! But like I was telling Galspanic, one of the big thoughts that stuck in my head when I first read that book was this: "Everyone in this book is smarter than me." All these specialized branches of Humanity, bred for generations for mental abilities, space travel, combat, even leadership... my lame 20th century body and mind just couldn't keep up. The ten grand wouldn't last long, and after that, I'd most likely end up digging ditches or mopping the floor somewhere.
THE MARVEL UNIVERSE (mid-'80s)
Great fun, here. Captain America was alive, Peter Parker and MJ were falling in love all over again, the X-Men teetered on legitimacy, and Iron Man was drinking himself to death. Opportunities in the Marvel Universe were everywhere, then; too. I'd use the $10,000 to travel the country, from lab to lab, looking for a stray radioactive animal or experimental serum or stray bolt of cosmic matter to give me amazing powers. Or, more likely, interesting powers. Truly awesome, useful, and stable powers were still a rarity. So I'd probably end up with a power better classified as a talent, like making objects rust faster, or being able to see really fast, or remember long numbers. In which case, I could join the Defenders.
Via google: the website of Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia. My sister however, who's personal scifi/fan library would crush any living human to death within 4 seconds, could give a more concise and less intimidating list of such books.
Oh, and I was explaining this to LQ, and she chose a Tartakovsky/samuri jack kind of 'verse.
And also, it would be pretty awesome to have a daemon... Though from the books, not the craptastic movie.
This is a profoundly depressing question.
Pone, your last universal choice has led me to create something that should have been created ages ago.
Please everyone sign up and get to work on this. Fugu, I believe you have the most comprehensive list!
I really haven't read much science fiction. I think I may have read one book in junior high. And another Tammy recommended to me years ago. I didn't really take to either, and I can't remember their titles.
But it SEEMS to me women in science fiction are always (or 90 percent of the time) dressed in tight spandex. Their main purpose seems to be to titillate.
I must be clear my opinions are based on impressions. But I think such impressions are important, as they may show science fiction has an image problem.
I will offer this in support of my claim. Go to Google Images and search for the words "science fiction women." What do you see on that first results page?
I'll try posting the search results here.
If the link doesn't work, try searching it yourself. I think it's telling.
But Dune sounds interesting, as does Ursula Le Guin. The Bene Gesserit group is intriguing. I'm skeptical, but am interested in learning more.
Odori, I question your search engine usage to back your argument. To use the internet as a method of determining gender equality ratios is outrageous!
It brings up a larger question regarding society to be sure, but...
I kind of think the image search illustrates odori's point pretty well. Sure, a search for "beer+women" and "cars+women" will get you similar results, but a search for "science fiction+women" won't get you anywhere near the kind of positive role models you'd find from "literature+women", "politics+women", or "journalism+women" (actually, that's not entirely true, but I have SafeSearch turned off).
I see your: I haven't read science fiction and believe it to be 90% filled with boobs wearing spandex which I support with popularized image search...
And I raise you this! Google image searches for:
Intelligent women, Intelligent men, Intellectual people.
I think an image search is a poor representation of the genre. The thing is, the vast majority of science fiction out there is literary, and therefore will never be included in an image search. The only pics you will find are the ones that absolutely have been biased by the media, but I think that science fiction writers would say that this has very little to do with science fiction, and much more to do with simply a male dominated society.
How about a straight-up google search for "women science fiction":
#1: Wikipedia's entry for women in speculative fiction/science fiction
#2: About a women pitching her sci-fi book idea. Interesting, but...
#3: The New York Times article, Women and Science Fiction:
"During what Ursula Le Guin has called the ''baboon patriarchy'' of the 40's and 50's, women characters in sf generally got about the same treatment. When they weren't being lectured by lantern-jawed scientists, they were being rescued by lantern-jawed space captains from lantern-mandibled aliens with eugenics on their nether brainstems."
"By the early 60's so many women had entered the field that aficionados liked to boast that sf had conquered sexism."
"For the six or seven major male science fiction writers who emerged during the 70's, there are at least 15 or 20 women. ''The best writers are the women,'' declares Harlan Ellison."
Not to set sexism back 40 years, but that was 40 years ago! I am seriously unnerved at the thought of people still believing that what I and some of the least chauvinistic people I know have been reading for all these years, is 90% space boobs. This is like generalizing that all fiction is Tom Clancy or romance novels. I submit that this is not the case for either, that science fiction can, and by a vast majority does include as much literary technique and sophistication as any straight fiction novel.
And here's the last part in the NYT article. Le Guin: "Meanwhile, it would be very nice if publishers would stop plastering book jackets with baroquely futuristic artillery, lecherous aliens and women in those large bronze bras."
OK, I'm going to try to explain my thinking in a little more detail.
I suspect the Google Images result is symptomatic of a problem. I'm not trying to say it's an accurate numerical representation of the percentage of women in science fiction that are portrayed as sexualized hoes.
When I thought of this question, I did a mental scan of the science fiction stories I'm familiar with.
As I've explained, my knowledge of literature is very limited.
As for movies, I thought of the following. They're all Hollywood blockbusters, but safely fall in the genre.
Bladerunner
Minority Report
I, Robot
The above are all well-told, well-acted stories with a lot of suspense and drama. I thoroughly enjoyed each one. (Especially Darryl Hannah's death scene in Bladerunner. Best death scene ever!!)
But I wouldn't want to travel to any of those fictional worlds. Why? Because the female characters in them are marginal at best. I don't want to go to a world where women are sidelined. I only want to visit a world where female characters are fully developed, so I have an idea how women there function and connect with the people around them.
The female roles have to be ones I can respect and understand. I can't think of any science fiction movies that fit this. If I could think of a movie with a female character equivalent to the above roles played by Harrison Ford, Will Smith, and Tom Cruise, I would reconsider.
I thought of some other films too.
Planet of the Apes -- it's been a while since I saw this so it's hard for me to remember the details. But this movie treated women as meat, basically. I think the female lead was (figuratively) dragged around by her hair for much of the film. I should watch it again to offer a more precise critique.
Catwoman - does this qualify as science fiction?
OK, so here we have a female lead! But she wears spandex and crawls around on all fours. Who's enjoyment do you suppose this role was written for?
Now, I'm not the kind of person who sits around railing against male dominated media all day. Or at all, really.
The only reason I started being critical is because I was trying to think of a fictional world I'd want to visit. And I have a hard time wanting to go to a world where women are marginal characters or are dressed like Playboy bunnies.
The Bene Gesserit sisterhood from Dune sounds interesting. But generally speaking, I'm skeptical when people say women have the real power because they're controlling things from behind the scenes. What's stopping women from being in power out in the open? The foreground/background power divide strikes me as unequal. I'm not buying it.
I'd be interested to see/read Dune to see the range and depth of its female characters. Hopefully my skepticism will be overcome!
OK, I'm definitely going to find a Ursula Le Guin novel and read it.
Recommendations?
Maybe I will even propose it to my book club. Fugu, you can guest star at one of our meetings if club members agree to read it!
Ha ha! No! But Panic said he'd love to. And if you read Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass (girl as a lead) I'd definitely come to that! To be honest I haven't read Le Guin in ages. The Left Hand of Darkness is the one I remember most, but I don't remember if it's book club material.
I was about say something about Margaret Atwood, and then I read this... "Atwood was at one time offended at the suggestion that The Handmaid's Tale or Oryx and Crake were science fiction, insisting that they were speculative fiction instead: "Science fiction has monsters and spaceships; speculative fiction could really happen."" Isn't that the same as saying that you can't take the speculative ideas in science fiction seriously because there's spaceships in it? So what!
I wonder if a big problem here is that most people see science fiction--actually, maybe just science--so far removed from their every day life that because it's such a fantasy, they can't picture anything but useless fantasy coming out of it?
Anyway, as far as movies go, Sigourney Weaver in Alien/Aliens come to mind as a strong female lead, but that's not exactly a fun place to live. I totally agree, Odori, if you're coming from movies there's crap for female roll models... Oh--There's the Ghibli movies. I can't think of anything else.
But there's TV...
Battlestar Galactica- Woman president, and all the women characters are... strong. Star Trek Voyager--woman commander person. Terminator/Sarah Connor Chronicles has 2/3 female main characters, I never watched it because I couldn't get over the name but I keep hearing Buffy was great. Dollhouse has a strong female lead (sort of). Scully in X-files, Hero's and Lost--the women are about as strong as the men... I'm sure there's a ton more.
Duh! Contact!!! Heeeeeart Jodie Foster.
Bene Gesserit: I'm pretty sure they rule very out in the open in most of the pre-dune history, right?
For outright female dominated societies, Sheri S. Tepper is really good, and might be book clubbable.
Totally different topic, but you know, this got me thinking of leads in scifi movies, and maybe another reason why I dislike Star Wars I-III so much... did those movies really have any leads? All the characters seem to be secondary to a poorly told story. Anakin? No. Obi Wan? No... Padme? No...
One of the major tenets of the Bene Gesserits is that they do just about everything from behind the scenes. They kind of run the show, without ever letting on what they have their hands in.
To focus on the admirable female characters, though, gives only a partial picture. For every Captain Kathryn Janeway there's a Seven of Nine, with makeup by Michelle Phan and glitter-suit boobies out to here. I mean, these two shared a stage. Are we really suggesting that one makes up for the other?
My problem with this larger argument is the use of the term "strong", as in "Strong Female Lead" (more elsewhere than here). No one in their right mind would refer to Jean-Claude Van Damme in Universal Soldier as a "Strong Male Lead" in any way that implies any kind of social value, but put a woman in that role, and suddenly she's a "Strong Female Lead", with the implication that she's someone for little girls to look up to. Surely there are better criteria to judge women other than how much enemy blood they can spill.
I could be wrong, here, but I think the problem with the representation of women in mainstream sci-fi has more to do with lack of diversity than anything else. Character tropes are a fixture in any fiction, but I think for women in Science Fiction, there are a lot fewer to choose from. I'm sure we all have our favorite characters that break these molds (Jodie Foster's scientist in Contact, Kaylee in Firefly, Diana in V, etc.) but I think it's pretty hard to deny that the molds are there, and that kind of a lot of the molds are wearing shiny space panties.
Yes! Contact with Jodie Foster. I'd totally go to her world!! Or worlds.
I think Mr. Pony is spot on about limited molds.
Ok. Lots to cover here. lots of things that everyone has touched on that seems important. I am excited. I am glad that this question has mutated into something worth discussing.
First of all, Let me apologize. I am a Sci Fi apologist. You see, I was raised Nerd in a mostly Jockish community. This was before the large Nerd equality movements of the eighties and nineties, and so I am colored by my cultural upbringing. I defend the sci-fi genre with a passion, because it was my solace against a life of ridicule and derision. It wasn't until much later that I realized that most of my teachers were practicing Nerds, and part of the underground Nerd movement of the seventies. Now Sci fi is legit, and allowably subject to ridicule and derision. I still defend it as if it was weak and struggling, as opposed to the cultural juggernaut it is today. To be a sci-fi geek today is a completely different animal than it was thirty years ago. I apologize for my somewhat outdated opinions.
I also apologize for my criticism of your use of the internets as a statistical resource, Odori. I think one could argue that the internets may be one of the more unbiased statistical resources available, if one is able to look at the larger picture.
But lets get to the meat of the discussion. I've been thinking about this all afternoon, and I realized that I have a question for Odori. What is it, specifically that you are looking for?
When the subject of "strong female lead" is brought up, is that even what you are talking about? Is that what you are concerned about? Contextual questions arise and abound. For one thing, when you bring up Planet of the Apes, you refer to the females being treated like meat. I happen to be a big POTA fan. I am fascinated by alternate earth stories, and so Ape society is very interesting to me. My first thought of a female in that movie was Zira, the chimpanzee scientist. So it depends on who you identify as the female lead in that movie.
If you refer to Nova, then yes, she is treated as something slightly above livestock, and below pets, so your view is accurate. And you can't dispute that she brought the male human viewers to the theater!
Yeah, her and Heston...yeeesh. Maybe Franciscus, but yeeesh, the skeletal visage of that NRA motherfucker is so spooky it makes me want the apes to win!
Catwoman is well...why the fuck are you watching that movie? If you went by the comic book work involving Catwoman, you might find a rich bounty of "strong female" lore, and I am sure Pony would be happy to introduce you. I don't know, but she's an interesting one to deal with especially in the context of a spandex clad female. From what I remember, Selina's big score is pretty good.
I also have issues with your opinion that Minority report or I, Robot are well told/acted.
Let's get back to context.
Personally, I think Terminator is a very interesting series of films in regard to the female's role. Sarah Connor's role in the movie is everything from victim-turned-warrior to earth mother surrogate, depending on who you talk to. The lore is surprisingly rich where she is concerned, especially since she is a major mythological figure for most male nerds of my generation. Cameron unwittingly created a beautifully flawed Kali archetype for a generation intrinsically obsessed with dystopian scenarios.
I'm going to argue that this character is a "strong female" sci fi character. I am using the word "strong" in the cultural sense as opposed to physical. (though she is both). She suffers, she adapts, she overcomes, she is vulnerable, she is merciless, she sacrifices, she gains. She becomes something more than human. She becomes a legend. At least, that's what popular culture has made of this character. I notice that the focus is now on her son, as the latest film in the series makes its way towards our eyes, but her role is become that of the Oracle. Which blends nicely into Pony's Gaze.
I think she displays qualities that make her (in my mind) a powerful female character. But that's my mind, and I have been shaped by the media that has been provided to me. What does that mean to you?
The second character that seems to be important in my eyes, is Major Makoto Kusanagi. I peface a cautionary raising of my hand before bringing her up, because you might look at her on a google search and immediately think "sex object", but bear with me, and things will become slightly less black and white.
First of all, it all goes back to context. Fugu and I were discussing this earlier this afternoon. One of the issues that we have with the discussion of gender roles in sci fi, or the seemingly callous take on the female body in science fiction, is that in the worlds described in the genre, the sexual body is a secondary feature. It is the life of the mind that is valued over the physical state. You can read whatever you want into this. I am pretty sure it has to do with the notion that most science fiction writers of the past 70-90 years were somewhat poindextery, but who can say for sure.
The point is, physical traits are often seen as secondary characteristics in Science Fiction. When people bring up sex in sci fi, it is usually a diversion to get over the tedium of space travel, or to make one's memory circuits reinstate what the friction of flesh feels like. It is a plaything, an abstract.
This is important because it is one of the hallmarks of Kusanagi's quandaries in the Ghost in the Shell series, which appears to be one thing, but might be something else entirely. Shirow Masamune's work has often been dismissed as hyperbolic braingasm smut disguised as cyberpunk fiction, but it is in essense a discussion of the machine soul, and what happens to the soul when the body becomes irrelevant. Elite groups of humans are at the peak of self control, having downloaded their souls/ghosts into android "dolls" to do their physical business. Other then their work, any frivolous thought is basically vacation to them. One select group monitors and polices the actions of these special individuals, and brings to justice those who abuse their powers. But when an AI enters the scene the whole thing is turned upside down. In my eyes the fact that the protagonist is an aesthetically pleasing image is really basically a ploy to sell the work. The concept is so heady, that if their wasn't any sex and violence, the story would be too exclusive. This is interesting, because it addresses the problem that Odori has at face value, and yet I believe is a truly sci fi approach to gender issue. Shirow Masamune is looking at it with a writer's eye to be sure, but he is also looking at it from a futurist perspective. He is seeing the situation as "I need my story to be read, if this requires the use of female human bodies exposed, and mindless violence explored, so be it." I'm not saying that's his thoughts verbatim, and some might challenge this by saying "hey that dude's a total perv." they may be right. You really can't win any sort of argument about being unbiased when you are trapped in a human body. Unless you are chemically castrated or something.
Odori, I think you should read some Octavia Butler. She kicks ass.
Also let me submit to the forum that the range of male sci fi archetypes is pretty limited as well. But please, as always, feel free to prove me wrong.
I also need to read Octavia Butler. :^(
Thank you for the reference to chemical castration. :^(
> For every Captain Kathryn Janeway there's a Seven of Nine, with makeup by Michelle Phan and glitter-suit boobies out to here.
Oh, come now. For every [insert any respectable, fictional female lead], there is a [insert any Kardashians star, 90210 star, OC star, married with children star...].
> Are we really suggesting that one makes up for the other?
No, we are not. But I think this brings up the point that I am a total failure at making a point. The suggestion was just that the Janeway character existed in the first place, as the initial premise was that she rarely, if ever, did.
What we're talking about now I think has everything to do with western culture in general, and nothing at all to do with science fiction. This is just a reflection of us, the medium be damned. Absolutely science fiction has it's space hos. But out of proportion to any other genre you can think of?
Western, horror, action-adventure, crime, detective, mystery, science fiction, fantasy, literary...
The more I think about it, absolutely fucking not. It seems a little unfair to say that science fiction has a monopoly in shallowness over the other stereotypes of:
the hos of western brothels
the slash victim/bimbo in her undies
the bond girls
the manipulative dame in the detective's office
any number of sexist icons that found their beginnings in literary fiction
I agree that if you look at popular iconography or even your average science fiction movie, "large bronze bras" are the majority. But the vast range of science fiction literature has never been represented in the popular media, as we've I think agreed, but maybe not to what extent. So I would submit this:
In the thousands of books in science fiction literature, women are as widely represented as in any other literary form.It seems a little more fair to believe something like this first, and place the skepticism not on whether these authors have done good works, but instead be skeptical about whether Hollywood has done them any justice in how they are portrayed.
> Surely there are better criteria to judge women other than how much enemy blood they can spill.
I don't think anyone here has said we should judge women by how much blood they can spill, which I am sure is A LOT, and might not be a bad idea from time to time.
> I think the problem with the representation of women in mainstream sci-fi has more to do with lack of diversity than anything else. Character tropes are a fixture in any fiction, but I think for women in Science Fiction, there are a lot fewer to choose from... I think it's pretty hard to deny that the molds are there, and that kind of a lot of the molds are wearing shiny space panties.
I'm totally going to set my sister on you, and she will spill blood.
So, wait.
Science fiction has a limited number of molds. ...So then, these character tropes that only exist in Regular Fiction:
They don't also exist in science fiction? Really? If say, a woman, feminist, nobel laureate in literature wants to write a science fiction story... she can't write any character she wants, only bimbos, just because it's science fiction?
FU, DUDES! BLACKS WILL BE FREE! WOMEN WILL VOTE! GAYS WILL MARRY! THE PROLETARIAT WILL RISE! SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS CAN WRITE WHATEVER CHARACTERS THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE, PREJUDICES BE DAMNED!
There are of course as many respectable women roles available in science fiction as there are in literary fiction, simply because it's a form of fiction. President Rosylin, Janeway, Gladstone, Lyra, Mrs. Coulter, M. Aenea, Juniper Mackenzie, Miranda, Nell, any heroine in a Tepper book, the bene gesserit... a quick list that could easily be much longer; leaders and good roll models all (well, except Mrs. Coulter). I don't think their authors would say that any belong to a spandex wearing, shiny panty mold.
Correct me if I'm missing something, but I think it comes down to something like this. Either it's that:
a) There's a stereotyped and overly publicized minority of science fiction that Hollywood is feeding us which is ruining the reputation of a large, talented, valuable collection of fiction, or
b) The belief that there is inherently less substance and value in the works of science-fiction writers than literary fiction writers, or
c) Those lazy science-fiction authors just haven't bothered to write good characters yet, or
d) We can blame it on unicorns and Canada
I apologize for the still-high-on-caffeine-3-am-post.
Okay, so obviously a nerve has been touched here. I'll tread carefully so as not to further arouse your righteous nerd-fury. Just kidding, just kidding.
Fugu's option (A) pretty much nails it for me. I think we (I) need to distinguish between science fiction as a genre of fiction, and the mass-marketing and extra-literary proliferation of said genre as seen by the public at large.
Fugu and Galspanic clearly come from a strong background in sci-fi, so of course, they see a great deal of depth and variety within the genre. And it's real depth and variety, several steps beyond the way someone with my background would see Justice League of America and the Avengers as being completely different comics.
And of course, they can pick out well-fleshed out female characters that are not (necessarily) wearing shiny space panties. No one's denying that these characters exist. Just that they don't really represent the public face of science fiction.
No one can ignore the fact that science fiction has, throughout its history, been sold/marketed/promoted using some of the most completely outrageous, objectifying (and I admit, wonderful) depictions of women in any genre. I think it's reasonably difficult for anyone coming into Sci-Fi from the mainstream to ignore the covers, movie posters, and so on and so forth. Like, I don't think we're saying that there aren't Janeways, but if you don't watch the show, and you just see the commercial while you're flipping around, I think it's easy to get the sense that Voyager was all about Seven of Nine. And let's face it, it kind of was.
Which brings up another point--successful Sci-fi teeters much farther into the objectification-of-ladies category. I'm not sure why, and I don't know what's causing what, but it really does. And by "successful", I certainly don't mean "good". I mean better at surviving in the mainstream. Better at replicating and sustaining itself. Of course, there are great, potentially world-changing books back there in the TOR section that will never be made into movies. So again, this is about what the public sees.
I think this is a sucky, but kind of real reality. Here's one way I see it happening:
Writers don't publish stuff. Publishers do. And publishers have always been terrified of Science Fiction; terrified that the intended audience will have little or no reaction to it. They're so terrified that they think their pulp sci-fi anthology magazine won't sell unless they put a mostly naked woman in some sort of sci-fi distress on the cover. So they do it. And the thing does sell. For whatever reason. And they think, hey, cool. I've saved the day. So when they publish their first sci-fi novel, they think, okay. BRONZE BRA! This becomes the norm.
Meanwhile the sci-fi writer is like, whatever. What Galspanic said. Whatever it takes to get this story read. I'mma keep writing.
The two parties continue on their ever diverging paths, until we hit modern TV and movies, where the money is much bigger, and the stakes are much higher; and marketing starts to put pressure on the writers to change their stories and characters to fit what the marketing folks think is selling the show.
Good writers are sidelined, and dudes who grew up looking at the covers of sci-fi novels (but not necessarily cracking them open) are hired to create these shows. They believe they understand that there are only a few archetypal female characters that will get people to watch, or put on commemorative plates, or whatever. Let's make another episode about Seven of Nine, they loudly shout!
A small group of readers continues to read and enjoy science fiction for the reasons that the writers intended, all but ignoring the ridiculous marketing shoehorned into their stories. They get so good at ignoring the sci-fi marketing boobies on the covers of their books, they can actually watch science fiction television shows and screen them out almost completely.
A larger portion of readers (okay; viewers), drawn in by the prospect of sci-fi marketing boobies, consume science fiction, and find that they like it, a little because of the bronze bras, but also because of the interesting ideas brought up by the real writers. They are intrigued on a couple of levels, and look for more.
A third group of media consumers, kind of creeped out by the lady getting her pants ripped off by an alien on the cover of the DVD, says "no thanks", possibly missing out on a great story, but also possibly avoiding a scene where an alien rips a lady's pants off. A reasonable person would assume that the latter would be the more likely scenario.
I sit in my room, plotting to destroy them all.
My gosh, it's going to be bad when we all get together. If we're at that bar, we're all totally going to get the shit kicked out of us.
Man, I wish y'all (Fugu, AI-BU9, and Heeero excluded) could have been at my 30th birthday party.
Odori would have seen some sharp sci-fi women who were both sexy, yet dignified. Everyone looked cool. maybe I should do it again for my 40th.
> My gosh, it's going to be bad when we all get together .
It's going to be fucking awesome.
> Okay, so obviously a nerve has been touched here
I just wanted to stand up for the proletariat, that's all. It was fun! ^_^
Sorry if I seemed to pick on your post, but I think I was taken sideways by your remarks since I know you used to read the stuff and all. And the whole limited molds thing did make my head explode just a little.
*man-hugs*
Funny, this is pretty much a continuation of Panic's other thread. Science-fiction has an unfair and unfortunate stigma carried by the media, check. The range in science-fiction spans the gamut of what literary fiction offers as well, check. Knock me down and fuck me shoes... pretty much, yeah.
Who's going to kick whose shit? Will we sit in a circle kicking each other's shit?
Or are will there be a group of jocks there that's going to kick our shit?
Anyhooo - I wasn't going to respond tonight to allow me to get enough sleep and do my job. But I can't suppress all I have to say!!
Panic - this has been a fascinating discussion, one that has prompted me to think about how I have consumed media and responded to images of women since I was little girl.
And Panic asks a good question - what is it I'm seeking?
Well, for starters fully-formed characters with depth, complexity and personality. In lead and supporting roles. But it can't just be that.
As Mr. Pony wrote, the presence of a real female character doesn't cancel out the presence of a caricature or mistreatment of women.
So, using the Planet of the Apes example, the scientist ape lady doesn't compensate for how Charlton Heston's characater drags around Linda Harrison's.
If a movie shows treatment like that and doesn't clearly display disapproval by letting viewers know the man is a depraved sociopath, then the film's creators are endorsing treating women like meat. And I'm fully in my rights to label the movie misogynist.
I got to wondering today, though, whether Heston's treatment of Harrison as a dehumanized babe in ripped cloth wasn't actually the film's subtle commentary on how humans were the beasts of the ape world.
Only problem is that Planet of the Apes was made in 1968 and a lot of movies in that era showed men treating women the same way. And when I saw the film, I noticed no so such irony.
Perhaps we should have a Planet of the Apes viewing party and we can analyze what's happening.
I also understand there's enough science fiction out there to make generalizations inaccurate. Besides, if Fugu's sister reads lots of science fiction, the genre can't be full of space hos.
Even so, I'm going to offer this potentially explosive observation/question:
I wonder if science fiction - and to varying degrees anime, manga and comics - may possibly have more than its fair share of sexist imagery because the whole point of the genre is to create new worlds. Thus the author/creater can easily manipulate women's bodies to be whatever he wants. And perhaps he might even think he should draw or write up outlandish creatures. There aren't any limitations on how large a women's boobs can be, what clothes she'll wear, what tasks he can have her do. Right?
And so it becomes more exciting for men who get turned on by the extreme depictions of fantasy women. And it simultaneously gets more unreal and weird for women who see the female form contorted in ways that are totally unnatural.
I think Murakami Takashi, the Japanese artist, gets the distortion of the female body very, very well.
One way he showed this, in my view, was by producing this pair of sculptures.
Here's the female one. And here's the male.
I suspect the male sculpture ("My Lonesome Cowboy") may help men understand how weird and disconcerting it is to see one's sexual organs completely contorted by someone's fantasy.
Most male science fiction, anime, manga etc. may give male characters giant pectorals or biceps. But few (or none) will give male characters strange penises, right?
So I love how Murakami took the distortion of sexual organs and applied it to men.
Btw, here's a good article about the cowboy piece and an interview with Murakami.
Still, at least men don't turn away from this cowboy sculpture and then see similar images plastered all over magazines, television, movies and the like.
Whereas women see the distortion of their bodies here, there and everywhere.
OK. I've had enough of being a raging feminist for a while.
Ooops. In the above comment, I didn't mean to have "most male" at the start of this paragraph:
Most male science fiction, anime, manga etc. may give male characters giant pectorals or biceps. But few (or none) will give male characters strange penises, right?
It should just start:
"Science fiction, anime..."
(I wish we could edit comments!)
You can't edit comments, but you can delete them and repost them.
Okay I'm typing this at work--where I should be refining some PhD's badly written book but instead I'm jumping into this thread (note: with low-heeled jack boots not space vixen vinyl) with my two cents (which is probably all its worth since I'm not going to go back over all the previous comments and attempt to make a thoughtful, serious contribution to the "cause").
I don't care how many examples, statistic, Google searches, or whatever you want to throw into this little circus. Unfortunately, if you're a girl sci-fi still FEELS like its meant for men. I love science fiction and read a lot of it growing up (and I am still reading it) and most of those stories were focused on men. This wasn't a problem as long as the characters were well-rounded and interesting. I suspect I'm probably older than all of you and I remember very few women characters back in the day that weren't "bracelets"--just a flashy accessory to hang on the hero's arm (I was ready to kill some of Lin Carter's heroines). There are more women writers and main characters now but sometimes it still feels like a token effort--basically if you took away the spandex pants and high heeled boots you'd have a man.
So does this mean that SF has no value and that men who read it and enjoy it are somehow insensitive dickheads who deserve to date someone like the main character in "Banner of Souls" who has teeth in her vagina? No. For the same reason its not a personality flaw if you read trashy bestsellers or whatever else you might be surreptitiously looking at. Reading the equivalent of "candy" is not a crime. The problem starts when people try to apply the rules in their candy universe in the real world.
Okay, you can all stop covering your eyes now, I'm done. Have to get back to optical turbulence profilers.
P.S. Now that we got rid of a certain somebody at the white house I think I'll just stay right here. Magic and talking unicorns probably sound more fun than they really are. Although I sometimes wish I had a big laser pistol and a spaceship.
P.P.S. I can't wait to see what Mr. Panic's closet of anxieties vomits up next. He's a troublemaker.
Odori, great points about Murakami's work. His work really speaks to a lot of the issues brought up here. Fine art saves the day again.
And mri, I have to agree with you too--not because I know what it's like being a girl or anything, but because sometimes I'm consuming science fiction, and I think, Wow, this really feels like it was created just for me. Wrapping my head around completely new and recombined concepts, flying spaceships in zero gravity, indecent costumes, stories that are bigger than a single planet, even; I love it. Even all the reasons that Fugu admirably tries to ignore, and that odori recoils in horror from. Maybe especially those reasons! I don't know. I just know that there is sci-fi out there that makes me happier than anything else I've seen or read.
I will try to stop bringing the rules of my fantasy life into my real life, but I cannot promise anything.
Mr. Pony, who could blame you for enjoying your candy? That's why its candy! Its fun! Who doesn't like candy? Well... I can think of a few.
I totally agree with you about the joy of SF. A well-written character, male or female, can appeal to everyone. Andre Norton has mostly male protagonists but I identified with them because they were a lot like me--unsure, afraid, standing on the edge of stepping out into what felt like another world (and sometimes was). These kinds of characters are universal, regardless of genitalia or apparel. I just get annoyed when someone comes along with the literary equivalent of Boon's Farm and tries to put it into my martini. I think Tolkien said something in one of his essays about how people don't seem to care about mangling fairy tales because they're considered unimportant--I think a lot of people think that way about SF which is a pity for those of us who love it.
I had lunch with my sister and another librarian today; both armchair feminists and avid science-fiction readers. Their take on all this, is this: you can find anything you want in science-fiction if you look for it. No surprise to anybody, I'm sure! Both of them also said that it's never been hard for them to find good, non-sexist sci-fi/fantasy books to read.
>I wonder if science fiction - and to varying degrees anime, manga and comics - may possibly have more than its fair share of sexist imagery because the whole point of the genre is to create new worlds. Thus the author/creater can easily manipulate women's bodies to be whatever he wants. And perhaps he might even think he should draw or write up outlandish creatures. There aren't any limitations on how large a women's boobs can be, what clothes she'll wear, what tasks he can have her do. Right?
Err... is that what you would do? Hmm. specifically because of the medium--in regards to anime, manga, and comics, I actually agree with you! For science-fiction though, I gotta say, I really don't. But, here's where we differ: from what you just said it seems that you see a majority of science-fiction writers as a bunch of nerdy phalluses who bang their heads on the keyboard to write about boobs. Obviously, you're not talking about these people:
Doris Lessing: Writes sci-fi, and nobel prize winning literature
Ann Rand: Writes sci-fi that's also considered straight-out literature
Margaret Atwood: Her sci-fi is... speculative literature
Kurt Vonnegut: Writes Sci-fi and literature
George Orwell: Sci-fi and literature
Ursula K. Le Guin: Writes sci-fi, poetry, children's books, essays, and literature
Sheri S. Tepper: Writes Sci-fi, horror, and mystery
China Mieville: Sci-fi/fantasy, err... marxism... and international law
Dan Simmons: Sci-fi, horror, and literature
Neal Stephenson: Sci-fi, non-fiction, and literature
Harlan Ellison: Sci-fi, screenplays, essays, and literature
Phlip K. Dick: sci-fi and essays
Johnathan Lethem: Sci-fi, essays, and literature
These writers and those like them are the ones who line our shelves, and are the face of science-fiction to the people I know who read it. They help set the bar for other sci-fi authors, so someone here is going to have to explain to me why writers wouldn't rather aim for this, but instead aspire to write crap. Because, look. They're the same people that write literary fiction, too. So unless you're arguing that a writer like Annie Proulx would create sexist imagery if she wrote sci-fi, how is it that the books we read, written by the same authors, have more than it's fair share than anywhere else?
...But yes, I completely agree with you about anime, manga, and comics. Hopefully it's not just personal bias, but I think that once you add the visual element to all this, many people will still put a third teat where there should be no teat. I think that Pony had a good point though that much of this may be the publisher's doing as much as anyone's. BUT, hopefully that's changing, too! My sister reminded me of this one, and I can't believe we forgot it: Y The Last Man, a comic about a world run completely by women after a plague kills off all but one man and his monkey (soon to be ruined in a theater near you!). The writer is a man, but the artist is a woman. I'd have to go back and really look, but I don't think the art was horribly offensive to women, and the story sure wasn't.
As a side note--this actually catalyzed our conversation at lunch, as the other librarian was asking for graphic novels a psychiatrist friend of ours could give to her patients as a source of strong women roll models.
K, I now have to add the Star Trekiverse to my possible list of destinations.
Hey, look, it's the 50 Hottest Sci-fi Girls of All Time!
First of all: Evangeline Lilly at #7 while Grace Park is at #35? No Dichen Lachman? Not on my Internets.
Secondly, you prove nothing.
hahahhahahah.
Mr. Pony, I love this. Yes!!
> Hey, look, it's the 50 hottest sci-fi girls in movies and on TV of all time, which we all agreed has a history of blatant sexism, but which we also agreed has nothing to do with the bulk of science fiction in literature.
Fixed that for you.
And I would like to make a point. Again, and again and again... Instead of continually picking on science fiction, consider that maybe it's simply guys in general, Odori. Also, please note that Pony likes science fiction for all the wrong reasons, and enjoys being the enabler.
As a random example, here's a search for "top ten sexist women" in google (irony intentional). We are just obsessed with women. It doesn't matter what we wrap it with--burlap bags, robots, horses, jesus... if you search for it, you'll find a picture of a hot woman next to it. It's in our genes, Odori. It has nothing to do with science fiction.
K?
Holy fucking hell! I missed all this. My nutshell, and I could be hanged for it. Pretend that there’s asterisks everywhere with footnotes reading, “not all women”.
I don't think sci-fi is targeting men via sexual means, or by the amount of women leads, or by the frequency (or lack of) of intelligent hard assed women. I don't think it has anything to do with that. Look at romance novels clearly intended at a female audience. Hot chicks, lots of sex, yet no male audience. How come?
I believe that science fiction is aimed to scratch an itch. This itch belongs in most men, and to some extent, some women. Sci-fi is filled with detail and obsession over justifying the fantasy, where as in other genres, it’s good enough that the fantasy exists. Men dig that, where as women just don’t give a shit, and fucking rightly so, to be honest.
Me: “It is so awesome that the ship's capacity to fire so much plasma is all centered on the fact that it has two generator fields encapsulated in an ionic chamber head.”
Girlfriend: “Who cares? Isn’t it enough for you that the good side won?”
The answer is no. It is not enough for me.
If you minus the obsessive details, I’m not sure if we have science fiction anymore; but fantasy or fiction, set in an alternate universe.
I think this is what makes science fiction, by default, target men. Men get off on details, and women do not.
I think there's inherent differences in men and women's intellectual interests that occasionally overlap. There. I said it.
I think this resonates with what Fugu said.
Creepy how true it probably is.
I think in this last round, we're all right, except possibly me. I did want to point out how the market distortions of Sci-fi had gotten all beer commercially, but then again, these are tough times. Look at what newspapers are finding themselves doing!
I love what Litcube says about sci-fi fulfilling a need for detail. I would point out, though, the obsessive detail in women's fashion magazines, which also happen to feature mostly naked women. I think we're talking about certain kinds of detail here, for the record.
Brings us back to what Fugu was saying; that women's bodies are used to sell sci-fi, fantasy, regular fiction; beer, women's clothes, men's clothes, cars, food, aspirin, stories, bills in congress, religion, science. And so on. It's kind of true; that all of us, men, and women, seem to respond to women. Have we talked about Breakfast of Champions, yet, where Kilgore trout hunts down copies of his science fiction stories in pornography shoppes?
Litcube's comment is particularly poignant for me as my girlfriend and I recently had a conversation about this as well. She obsesses more about results and goals and realistic, useful things, rather than esoteric details of the universe that have no practical merit outside of theory. This tears me up inside.
That rule 34 page was ...enlightening. My eyes particularly lingered over the math, Land O Lakes, and Asterix porn, and I'm okay with this.
Fugu says:
And I would like to make a point. Again, and again and again... Instead of continually picking on science fiction, consider that maybe it's simply guys in general, Odori. Also, please note that Pony likes science fiction for all the wrong reasons, and enjoys being the enabler.
Fugu -- I was only saying I enjoyed the extensive examples Mr. Pony posted. They seem to underscore that there is a lot of sexist imagery in sci-fi film. THe list he linked to is, by definition, not making any allegations about sci-fi literature.
And I'm not picking on anyone or anything!!
Remember, this entire discussion grew out of a comment I made about how many (if not all) historical fiction worlds would be rough places for an early 21st century woman to visit. And, I added, it seemed to me in my limited experience that a lot of sci-fi fiction would also be tough worlds for an early 21st century woman like myself to visit.
I still would like to explore the worlds that Ursula Le Guin and others have created. As Fugu has pointed out, there is a lot of depth to sci-fi that people like myself don't know anything about.
Yet, remember, many worlds - historical, fantasy, sci-fi, current reality, whatever - can be tough places for women. And I had a hard time thinking of fictional worlds I'd want to go to. Right here, right now, seems like a comparatively good deal.
That's all I'm saying.
I also enjoyed Litcube's observation on detail -- interesting point. The detail in fantasy fiction/sci fi fiction is not so appealing to me. Don't know why.
Sorry, I was already a little grumpy when I wrote that and then I saw all those exclamation points and got nervous. Good thing we can hug it out again at dinner tonight!!!
See you at 7:30. Got us a table. I'll be wearing my knock-me-down-and-fuck-me-shoes.
Hugs! OK.
Mr. Pony, I hope your heels will be at least 3 inches tall.
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